Vitaly Lytvyn, Ukrainian National Guard Frontier Brigade Mayor, Hero of Ukraine

Military serviceman Vitaly Lytvyn spent a third of his life fighting at the at the frontline. He went to fight in Ukraine in 2014. And, in June 2022, he was conferred the title Hero of Ukraine, attached with the Golden Star medal  - for personal courage and heroism. Currently, he is a senior officer with the reconnaissance division at the Rubizh (‘frontier’) Brigade, the National Guard of Ukraine (NGU). From the first days of the Great War, Vitaly and his soldiers were in Hostomel outside of Kyiv. While fighting there they ordered themselves to hold out for eight hours at least, whatever the cost. He estimated that those eight hours would be enough for the country to mobilize for the war. And this task was accomplished.

Hero of Ukraine Vitaliy Lytvyn (call sign Desna), the guest at this video interview Ukrinform held as part of its Victory Commanders project, says that, for him, the military profession was a conscious choice in response to the demand of the time. He shared his thoughts on what transformation the Ukrainian army has undergone in the past ten years, and how the adversary has changed. Indeed, we also conversed about the specifics of reconnaissance operations amid war, and about the conscription for war.

- Let's start with your call sign. Why Desna?

- Everything is quite simple with the call sign, because I was born in Desna, the neighborhood that is home base to the Ground Force’s 169th training center. When I joined a volunteer battalion in 2014, everyone started choosing call signs for themselves, and soldiers from my unit just began calling me Desna. And then I came to thinking to myself about what makes this call sign special to me, and guessed this is the Desna River, which I love so. This is what makes it special to me.

- Officer, reconnaissance man, commander. What the military profession means for you? A dream from childhood or a conscious choice, or the demand of the time, or the war that disrupted all plans?

- For me, military profession was a conscious choice prompted by the demand of the time. I did not dream of joining the military. It all started in 2013, from the Revolution of Dignity, the brutal beating of students on the Maidan, then Yanukovych's laws, which he passed. Then followed Russian’s annexation of Crimea, occupation of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, and the understanding that the country can make use of me, because I am young and healthy. I was living in a neighborhood attached to a military town, I was familiar with weapons, was trained in shooting as a student. I’m good in warfighting tactics, understood that the country can take an advantage of me as a fighting unit. So, I joined a volunteer battalion. As the time demanded, I made a conscious choice to join the ranks of the Defense Forces of Ukraine in 2014.

- What made you become engaged in the reconnaissance force? Can everyone master this profession?

- I don’t think everyone can master this job. This is a pretty complex military specialty that requires high-level general development, weapons handling proficiency, the ability to analyze the events taking place and to provide the core information extracted from a particular event or the developing situation. And how did I engage with the reconnaissance force? I didn't plan it at all. I first found myself in an infantry unit, went through one rotation in 2014 in this infantry unit, and then was invited to train in a profession such as unmanned aerial vehicle operator and, back in 2014, I went to a training course. So I had mastered this specialty and served as a UAV operator long before this became mainstream. Then, once in Ivano-Frankivsk, in a store that sold remote-controlled toys and some digital devices, they assembled a quadcopter for us - and we left for work. And it was then, like I said in an interview some time in 2014 or early 2015, when we were provided with these unmanned systems. I said that it was very important because we can detect the enemy early, strike at them, we can adjust artillery fire, and this will save our soldiers’ lives. I had this understanding back in 2014. Then, when on a rotation, we went out for a mission. Our drone was flying and flying until shot down. Afterwards, I was doing intelligence gathering and reconnaissance missions. And this is when I connected perhaps my entire military service with reconnaissance.

- So, to sum it up what you said, joining military ranks in 2014 was your conscious choice prompted by the demand of the time. But before, you didn't think about it, or at that time, did you think that you could engage in something else? Do you imagine yourself as someone other than a military serviceman?

- No. What I can image is – pick whatever trade you want, and I think I’ll be able to learn it. But at this stage in our country’s history, I do not see myself as anyone but a military man. We are now writing world history, and it is an honor to serve in the ranks of the Defense and Security Forces of Ukraine. Basically, it would be very prestigious to work in a managerial position (this is my biased opinion). And, probably, if there were no war in our country (not probably, but 100%), I would be engaged in something else, not in the military. And from 2014 to the present time, as we are fighting the Russian war of aggression, and the war has been going on since 2014, I do not see myself as anyone but a military man.

- You are so versatile, you claim you can learn whatever trade. Is this versatility a must-have for a reconnaissance man, or may be there are other must haves as well?

- This is just one of the traits a reconnaissance man is supposed to possess. First and foremost, there must be in place a certain level of intelligence, especially now when we are receiving large quantities of Western weapons, such as the M-4, the Polish Grottoes, Czech weaponry. Plus we possess Soviet-era weapons, plus locally made armaments. That’s to say, a reconnaissance man is supposed to learn all of the weapons types in his unit’s inventory; this all must be memorized. Then to learn out the types of the weapons used by the adversary, their specifications and performances. In my unit, for instance, all personnel are mandated to take training courses, and I encouraged them to get into training. For example, before the full-scale invasion, we used to go out for field training sessions, and everyone in my company knew how to drive an armored personnel carrier, drive the armored vehicles that we had, fire from all types of weapons that were present in the battalion. Everyone had to learn how to shoot. We had UAVs, everyone had to learn how to operate a quadcopter, at least at a basic level, because some day someone, an UAV operator, can die, and someone must take over his job, do further tasks, so that personnel don’t lose this capability. I understand how the adversary uses this technology against us. And when planning a mission, I factor in the specifications and performances of the enemy's capabilities and our capabilities. Therefore, a reconnaissance officer, who is assigned to do a particular mission, understands the situation, the events taking place, and he is supposed to be able to make realistic assessments and analyze them correctly.

- Did you do very dangerous missions deep behind the frontline, from which not all returned?

- Unfortunately, we did. There was one such mission during the Lyman offensive operation, when we were already returning. It happened on our way back, after an enemy’s air raid was over, we had to take a very long bypass route, and already on the way back we came under an airstrike that killed two from our reconnaissance squad. There were such missions at the beginning of the all-out invasion. There were two of them.  One saw the first loss from among our unit. It was Valery Odnorob: when our reconnaissance group advanced to obtain intelligence about the enemy’s front edge, a sniper shot and killed him. The evacuation was difficult, we had to use a vehicle, and it was the first loss from among my subordinate personnel. In the missions that followed, to my great regret, there were other losses suffered while executing our tasks, because many tasks were very difficult to perform, especially considering that very little amount of artillery ammunition was allocated to cover up our reconnaissance missions. For example, during a preparatory artillery barrage, that is, when it was necessary to move constantly, and at long distances, a reconnaissance squad is subject to particularly intense enemy fire. Once we make a raid, for example, massive artillery shelling immediately follows. That said, reconnaissance men encounter hosts of very, very challenging threats while performing their missions.

Currently, reconnaissance missions involve other threats, such as munition-dropping UAVs and first-person-view (FPV) drones that can kill squad members if the squad is spotted and discovered by the enemy.

- What is the most important thing for you when preparing for reconnaissance missions, apart from what you have already mentioned, any technology aspects?

- Nothing can be unimportant in preparing for or executing a reconnaissance mission nor any other mission. In other words, personnel selection, morale and psychological strain, cooperation with artillery units, with units performing tasks on the immediate tactical edge, cooperation with reconnaissance support units – either conducting electronic intelligence to listen in on hostile communications at the tactical edge, or radar stations that track enemy movements at 15-20 kilometers behind the frontline – this all is of importance. In the event the enemy discovered us, every team member knew how to act and where to move. If someone in the team was killed, everyone understood what actions need to be done. That is, if one soldier is killed or wounded, we move on and complete the mission. Where there are two killed or two wounded, we retreat because there is not enough personnel to proceed with the mission. Where there is one casualty dead, it's actually easier, because the body can be left behind, dragged away, so that the mission is brought to completion. But where there is a wounded casualty, two personnel are needed to do the evacuation, which involves additional costs. It may sound very dry, but such is the reality. If a task has been set for a reconnaissance team, it must be fulfilled. Because, for example, if a raid is not deployed as planned, we do not distract the enemy, then more munitions will be fired against our units operating along the main axes preparing for assault actions. Everything is elaborated down to the smallest detail: weapons, equipment. Where we go out to a range to practice night shooting, everything is checked: reconnaissance soldiers just jump up and down to see which elements rattle, which make noise, how well night vision gear is fixed on the helmet, is the helmet comfortable to wear. That is, I allow them time to modify this all, improve it for shooting. Then we practice night shooting, in twos, threes, and fours, simulating an actual raid. We check out how we can throw grenades, the fastening of cartridge pouches on body armor, that is, everything is very important. Because, for example, where you have seconds to decide what to do and where to move, where you discover an enemy and he starts shooting back, a firefight begins, you have to just reflectively get out and throw a grenade, have to understand what to do, where to go, how it all is happening.

- Regarding the morale and psychological aspect, which you’ve mentioned. By what criteria is it evaluated, and have you ever experienced instances where you were not ready for a certain mission because of this aspect?

- This reveals when communicating with personnel to check out their morale status. When I had been recertified, I took over command from a special operations unit, I was a sergeant, grew up to an officer, a mayor, I did my service alongside my sergeants, my soldiers – full trust has always been there. There were very difficult moments at the beginning of the full-scale invasion. We were permanently deployed in Hostomel,  families of many of our soldiers lived there and nearby, in Irpin, Bucha, Hostomel, that is, very close to Kyiv. These settlements had been occupied by Russian forces by that time, and this exerted severe pressure on my personnel, because they understood that, for example, their families, wives and children were under occupation. But at the same time they understood that they are now in this location to destroy the enemy, because some else’s families remain under Russian occupation in Rubizhne, Severodonetsk, or Lysychansk, for example, there are someone else's children who need to be protected. And we all understood this.

You know, at the beginning of the full-scale invasion there was a situation: I gathered my personnel and said: we must hold out for at least eight hours, that is, we must allow eight hours for the country to mobilize for the war. During these eight hours, people will go to military conscription centers, during these eight hours military units will get prepared for combat, will move to designated mission areas. That meant we all could die, but we must hold out during these eight hours at least, whatever the cost, even if we all are going to die, but we must contain the adversary so that the country has time to mobilize for war.

I felt like all commanders, all military personnel - border guards, airborne assault troops, air force, navy, National Guard, National Police -- were all linked with an invisible thread, and  all citizens in Ukraine had consolidated and understood that we have to endure these eight hours. I don't know, this might be my subjective opinion, but those eight hours turned the most crucial for our country. In absence of orders, in absence of communication between Chernihiv Oblast, Sumy Oblast, Kharkiv Oblast, Luhansk Oblast, Donetsk Oblast, Kherson Oblast, Zaporizhzhia, there was no direct communication between commanders, sergeants, platoon leaders, division leaders, brigade commanders, but there was, you know, such a spiritual unity, an understanding that this is a must do. At that moment, I did not see even a spark of doubt in my personnel: everyone, commanders and soldiers would work as one. And at that moment, I realized that my soldiers -- with such a strong morale, with the understanding that their children and wives remain there in occupation -- will go to battle and fight. Afterwards and until this day, these people have lost their comrades-in-arms, I saw tears in their eyes at funerals of their fellows in different parts of our country, but every time they got up and went performing their assigned tasks.

Recently, I keep giving this example, there was a fellow of ours, Volodymyr Ivashchenko, he had a child about three weeks ago, but died two months earlier, meaning the child was born after his death. And every serviceman understands what for he is doing this, that is, he understands why and where we are moving, that we are doing this for the sake of Volodymyr's child, for the sake of every child in our country. For example, I easily get tired going to the fifth floor, I want an elevator to lift me up. But at war, I don't feel tired of this all, having an understanding of what you are doing and why.  There should be no psychological fatigue, but an understanding that we are fighting for our existence, this just needs to be endured; no one should have shame to turn to a psychologist, turn to our commanders, talk about this, highlight this, take up arms and fight on.

- As regards the psychological approach that you’ve just mentioned, do you apply it to your personnel?

- Regrettably enough, I have scarce experience of life as civilian. I joined the military at 20 years old, now I am 30 years old, have served ten years with the Defense Forces of Ukraine. Perhaps it is precisely due to this experience as a soldier, I understood how commanders are thinking towards me, how I would like the commanders treat me, and I see how I should treat my personnel. Afterwards I served as sergeant, that is, I went through this entire service with an understanding of the factors underlying psychological weakness or resilience in every soldier, who may think that there is betrayal everywhere, that their commanders are bad, because they feed them poorly or don’t provide enough munitions, they don't let them shoot at the enemy. That’s to say, I understand my self as it was at that time, what led me to such conclusions, and I understand how this can be influenced. At the beginning of the war in 2014, we held a checkpoint on the outskirts of the settlement of Popasna. This area was already under Russian occupation, and, at 6 a.m. on every weekday, lots of civilians were crossing the battle line to apply for pensions, to apply for documents. And from 6 to 10 a.m. I was drawn in to communicate with the civilians. My partner came up, checked the documents, whereas I was speaking to people, and by looking at vehicles, looking at persons, looking at their belongings, I could find out what they are about. And by analyzing some inconvenient positions of a person's body, I could see whether he or she was lying or not. This experience of communicating with people at checkpoints saw situations that were potentially dangerous for life and health, of mine and of these civilian people, because artillery barrages occurred from time to time, the enemy was attacking right during these inspections, people had to be sent down to shelters, and these situations, too, make part of my experience. Another experience was when I interrogated captured Russian soldiers, since 2014 and till now.

- Do you, in your everyday life, ‘turn on” your ability to see through people, when walking, for instance, do you evaluate people like that?

- I don't evaluate people, but evaluate the tactical situation surrounding me. When I go shopping or to a cinema, for example. By the way, in one such situation, I once came to Chernihiv, met with friends, a man approached us and asked if someone of us wants to buy his car, a Ford Transit? I responded: is that the one with the so-and-so license plate and the flat rear left tire and broken rear window? He said, yes, how do you know? I was just passing by and memorized all the cars parked there, I don't know why it was so at that particular moment. When I enter a room and upon leaving it, I will say how many people were present there. I will not remember the gender, eye colors, just important things like the number of exits and floors, how many cars were parked outside, how to leave, how to drive in, how many turnpikes – my brain calculates this all. But I don't follow what people are doing, this needs more focused concentration. Before going out for a mission, I have 20 minutes for rest; I just sit down and take a nap, while scrolling through in my mind a particular situation. For example, we are going to storm a building, this room, for instance. I imagine how many people can be there; if I am wounded in the right leg, on which side should I fall; if I run out of ammunition, if there are more enemies - what should I do. That is, when I see it from the first person view, I see it from above, I see it from the enemy's perspective - how can he see me, what kind of weapons he may use - and in these 20 minutes I can simulate a lot of such situations. I just imagine the smell when I fall, imagine myself falling on broken glass, how it cuts my hands, which of my gear it can damage, if there is gravel, if it is night time, if it is raining, what the visibility is, my night goggle lens is fogged, the collimator gets wet, I shoot and water drops fly into my face. Twenty minutes in, and I already have solutions to challenges that might face me. That is, I simulate this whole situation up to a detail such as coming under artillery fire. Sometimes, where I'm on a long drive, and the inspiration is there, I can imagine enemy gunners loading a munition, and that munition flies like in slow motion and then explodes somewhere nearby me, like in a cinematic picture of the battlefield. You simulate this all, and when a real-world situation happens, you have much less time, you just shoot, fall, you get up, because you have simulated this all in advance, and you just act mechanically.

- Does that mean to say that reconnaissance is not just a specialty, but a particular way of life?

- Yes, this is a particular way of life, the performance of particular tasks. Because the soldiers who left my unit, for example, have gained command positions in other units, having become first-class professionals in performing their official duties as commanders. Lots of them became platoon leaders, company leaders, they have retrained, because they can easily learn whatever specialty they may be presented with; they are ready and willing to grow, to learn and perform tasks. They know how the war is waged.

- What is the greatest reward for you as a commander?

- Survived and alive personnel. For the wider context: when performing tasks, battalion tactical group commanders, brigade commanders sometimes set tasks, and you understand: this can cost casualties, wounded or dead, among your reconnaissance personnel. But these tasks, they can be important not just at the tactical level, but at the operational level, and, if completed successfully, can save the lives of some of military personnel or civilians, or contribute to improved defenses, or to the success of an offensive operation. For a commander, lots of aspects are of importance: the confidence that the task will be completed, and that your personnel will return alive; the training of the personnel, their morale and psychological status, competent leaders whom I assign to reconnaissance groups, and confidence in them. This combination as a whole, it worked for me, it works now, because I am confident in my subordinates, I am confident in my reconnaissance squad leaders, confident that they understand the importance of this or that task, they understand that it can contribute to the preservation of lives, will help improve the situation in their assigned sector of the frontline, whose interests they are working for -- and people go and do it.

You know, It matters the most for me, the most rewarding thing for me is to see my soldiers smiling when they come back after completing a mission without casualties among them, and you just look into these enthusiastic eyes. In my unit, the age ranges between 19 and 50 years old. They go out for a mission, and when they come back, despite such a huge age difference, somewhere amounting to half a lifetime, they just sit down, smoke, make themselves coffee or tea - and begin sharing their emotions, telling some funny, witty situations that arose with them while on the mission, telling who killed more of the enemy soldiers, who gathered more intelligence, who did what. And this is something that glues the reconnaissance group together.

The other side of this coin is that, when a reconnaissance group returns and we are already driving in a pickup after completing the mission, we are tired, we have no tears in our eyes yet, but we have lost our comrades. Afterwards I write down, notify all my comrades, my subordinates through our community group that we have lost servicemen, our comrades. These were mostly parents, who had children, who had wives, I notify them, and this is the other side of this war. You know, a satisfaction with yourself followed by despair for a comrade, one with whom you shared these positive emotions yesterday, and today you understand that, in a week’s time, he will be buried. And, you know, it's a kind of balance between self-satisfaction after completing a difficult task and realizing that each of us can die, an understanding why we do this all. You know, it's a kind of triangle, three whales on which the unit rests.

- You are talking about the psychological status of your comrades, your subordinates. But what about the psychological status of your own? How do you deal with these feelings, with these two sides of the war that you have mentioned? At the beginning of our conversation, when you talked about one of the tasks performed, you said so and specifically noted that it sounds very dry when a soldier dies in mission, it is easier to complete the task than with a wounded casualty. Is this a habit like with doctors, because you have to deal with security risks every day, or what?

- This is more about the hot heart and cold mind, you know. Once we were planning for an operation at the Bakhmut front, in which related units were to be involved. We are doing the planning, offer arguments in support, and I say: with my reconnaissance group, if a soldier dies, we proceed with the mission, and continue: we need to think about evacuation. Then I ask another commander about how many casualties he is ready to take. He answers: no way, we are not going to bear losses. No, I say, guys, that’s war, there can be an air raid or strikes with MLRS rockets. The enemy is numerous, tanks will enter the firing line, the enemy will go into battle. Afterwards, the offensive we were planning for saw seven airstrikes deployed against our assaulting forces. I say: I don't want this to reoccur; we are going to suffer losses, so we have to plan for the evacuation, we have to assign personnel so that I know there will be people available to do the evacuation, so that I do not have to distract my reconnaissance soldiers from their mission. And I continue: not only my reconnaissance and assault group or reconnaissance and strike group, as you may call it, can suffer casualties in dead, but yours’, too, and you must appreciate this. And personnel, too, must be aware of this eventuality, so that when this happens, you're ready to proceed with the task, because that task is crucial for the success of the battle at this stage. And we, my reconnaissance group, complete that task then. My deputy led the group. He stepped on a mine, lost a limb, an evacuation team from among an infantry squad immediately moved forward, they evacuated him to safety, and the reconnaissance group had no questions to ask, everyone knew who was going to take over the command of the group. And everyone knew the task, everyone understood who would take over what responsibilities, and the group moved on.

I was fully aware that casualties could happen. You know, this is not about cynicism, but just about a dry planning, an understanding of the task set, and about analyzing and calculating the situations that may arise. Because this is a must happen. That’s war, people die and, unfortunately, they will die in battles. And now, while I’m talking to you, we are paying a very high price for territories in the Russian Federation, in its Kursk region. There are casualties, there are losses in equipment and personnel. We must appreciate that losses will occur, and that we are ready to pay this price for some of our actions, some of our tasks, for the occupation of territories, because this cannot do without losses.

And, for example, during this mission, you know, it’s not that I don’t factor it in, I really value my personnel, maybe you won’t find a man who values ​​human life more than I. This value is huge, and especially so where this is about a Ukrainian life. If t's a citizen of our country, a military service man or woman, civilians, a child, people of whatever trade  - it's the most valuable thing in our world. As I say, a single machine gun bullet fired by our adversary can cause the greatest tragedy in the world, it can kill someone's loved one,  someone's daughter, someone's brother - and that is the greatest tragedy can happen on our planet . And this is only one single bullet, let alone artillery munitions or Kinzhal missiles that are targeting Kyiv, destroying our culture and killing our citizens.

- Intelligence officers, reconnaissance men tend to hide their faces, their identities. You, a media person, why are you doing otherwise? Is that because you are no longer engaged in current operations?

- Look, I have been giving interviews from 2014; I am not a secret agent, I do not travel to the Russian Federation, neither do I plan this, I have no intention to kill someone abroad, because my face will be recognized. I perform mostly military missions, on a territory of my own, I don’t have fear for anyone. In performing combat missions, I am not afraid of being recognized by the enemy. It will recognize me anyway, by a Ukrainian flag on my shoulder. If it wants to kill me, it will do so, no matter whether I am a media person or not. The missiles targeting Kyiv and other cities don’t discriminate between an intelligence officer and an energy or railway worker, nor between ages or genders. I, on my own land, understand that the enemy came to us with a brazen aggression. I never afraid if someone is asking me for an interview about my views. If the enemy wants to face me in a pistol duel somewhere in Kyiv, welcome, let's go.

-  How the Ukrainian armed forces as they were in 2014 differ from what they are now in 2024? What transformations have taken place? What would you single out as the most important trends? Why?

- Let’s talk about the years 2010, 2014, 2022, and 2024. I was born in a military town named Desna, like I said before. I have witnessed our army being purposefully destroyed in a systematic manner, by efforts of the agent network on the one hand, and by the political leadership, like it was under Yanukovych as president, on the other. With Desna, for example, once a division-size unit, they planned to get its strength reduced down to a brigade level. That is, they wanted to release everyone, sell off the equipment, because Ukraine does not need an army, because "friendly nations" live next to us: the Russian Federation, Belarus. We have international agreements in which the United States, Great Britain, and the Russian Federation committed to support us, and Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty would be guaranteed. We naively believed in this all, allowing the Russian Federation the ability to destroy. I am not even talking about the previous 50 or 100 years when part of the Soviet Union, when the Ukrainian identity was being meticulously destroyed.

The year 2014 marked the 10 years of systematic destruction of our army. It was a challenge. You know, if they were a little smarter, I think they would have succeeded in a lot of things - military operations and PSYOP operations. Due to this unity of ours in critical situations, where there is some challenge facing us, we unite together as one in response to this challenge. In 2014, when our army was being destroyed in a systematic manner, we were inspired by the influx of volunteers. In 2014, my salary amounted to 960 hryvnias. On my way there, I thought I was going to die there. Active hostilities, frontlines are moving, then Ilovaisk battle, other circumstances, new cauldrons, you know what was going on there. I had this understanding, that I must go and fight. It forced Ukraine to begin building up its military in a completely different way. It became clear to many Ukrainians that the Russian Federation is an aggressor, that the war is going on, that the adversary is insidious, that PSYOP is working on the Ukrainian territory. People began uniting into military communities, this trend was being popularized. Our servicemen began being engaged in training abroad, in international exercises held on the Ukrainian territory. Furthermore, we began acquiring international experience, began to realize experiences of our own. Then the full-scale invasion broke out. I don’t think the world community expected that this would continue into 2024. It was a general belief that the Russian Federation has a mighty army, that it is capable of destroying everything, turning Washington into radioactive ash, as they claimed back then. They saw that we can contain the enemy, that we are fighting. This was what united us together again, since 2014. This new wave was more powerful, because the challenge facing us was way more severe. But we already had the experience gained in the anti-terrorist operation, joint forces operations and international exercises. Then our partners started giving us weapons and ammunition, began supplying us with small arms, MLRS launchers and munitions,  artillery guns, and intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance equipment. And within our country, the transformation began. The military-industrial sector began to revive, because our military needs are huge. That’s to say, that was a system that got into gear. The modern Ukrainian army -- from the army of 2010, which was collapsing, to the army of 2014, which had no experience -- commenced to feed in the international experience. Then we got filled our ammunition stocks, increased the army strength, and now we are able to held under our military control a territory with settlements in the Russian Federation – their sovereign territory, not the currently Russian occupied areas of Ukraine --are able to contain the enemy that hugely outnumbers us in terms of personnel, artillery systems, and ammunition. So, everyone should learn own lessons from this time period.

- You are talking about the transformation of the Ukrainian army, but what about the adversary? What is it like now? Has it changed in terms of the level of training, ammunition, weapons, and, finally, in terms of motivation?

- The adversary did change, and they gain in experience, too. They are reviving and reinforcing their defense-industrial sector, launching some kind of partnerships with China and Iran. They are acquiring weapons. North Korea provides them with ammunition, the cruise missiles that they deploy against us. The adversary facing us is very insidious, like I said before, they outnumber us in terms of ammunition, artillery systems, weapons of war and military gear. And they do have a certain amount of experience. But, you know, this is one more answer to your previous question. It’s highly important, and that’s true. The truth should be told everywhere, at all levels. I personally am always true with my personnel, telling them which task will be dangerous, very difficult to complete, I do not deceive anyone. In the Russian Federation, lying is, perhaps, something that is inherent in their identity. And due to this lie, which goes down from a squad leader and up to president of the Russian Federation, they cannot figure out particular circumstances or a situation, and that’s why they cannot succeed. Because, as a Russian saying has it, a man is a wolf to a man. They are like a wolf pack that fights among themselves. They are laundering a crazy amount of money. But they compensate for this with a great number of tactical-operational aircraft and a huge human mobilization resource. We have to surpass them in intellect and military wisdom, in skillful use of this or that type of weapons.

- You once said in an interview that, in order to prevail in this war, we will need to lower the age for war conscription. Lower to what age? How do you think such an unwelcome move can reverberate among the public?

- In the interview you have mentioned, I said that, in my subjective opinion, the age threshold should be lowered to 22 years old. Because by that age a Ukrainian citizen has time to graduate from a university, become mature enough to realize as a personality, as a person. Currently, where drones, munition-dropping drones are deployed everywhere, it takes a walk of 3, 5, or 7 kilometers to reach a launch site, which is tiring, physically demanding. My opinion is that the war is the business of the young. I, for example, at 30 years of age, in the prime of my life, can go and perform tasks, am healthy and strong enough to perform these tasks. I do not want to level the merits of the people who are 50-55 years old. If a man takes care of himself, continuously improves his physical fitness, he can perform these tasks. But there is a personnel shortage in particular units. For me, as a commander, like for any commander, it goes against my interests to send on a task a 22-year-old, a 55-year-old serviceman who came to serve with me untrained. It is not in the interests of me, my platoon leaders, squad leaders, of this particular serviceman, and my brigade commander. Because if personnel don’t receive proper training, they will go just to be killed. If so, battalion commanders will tell me: you have lost personnel, you are incompetent for this position. In our brigade, within the Defense Forces of Ukraine, all servicemen undergo training. To be honest, I, while on my first trip to Dnipro city some eight months after the breakout of the all-out war, thought that they were calling up all men aged 18 and older. They tell me: not younger than 27 years old. I say, what? Aren’t we at war? In my subjective opinion, many will hate me for this, will tell me that we need to mobilize everyone, that the country is lacking in people, it's a shame. No, there is no shame in the country. Let's be honest: imagine we call up a 22-year-old guy and send him to serve as a UAV operator, or a 55-year-old man. Who do you think is going to be more effective in this position? Of course, this will be the 22 year-old guy, because he has been proficient with the smartphone since childhood, he understands these technologies thoroughly, he understands everything faster.

- So, do you think that the reason for calling up younger men is that they are more proficient with technology than older generations?

- This is just one reason, others being a higher level of physical fitness and the need to add personnel to units that are lacking people to serve in specific positions. This is my subjective opinion. Like I said before, the war is the business of young people aged between 22 and 40.

- You are talking about the need to replenish the combat strength of our army. But I know that we still have a resource of not only young guys, but also older ones who are eligible to be mobilized, but, for some reason or another, have not yet joined the ranks of the Armed Forces. So, my next question is:  What’s your opinion, your subjective opinion, about what to do with the draft-age men who fled Ukraine, swam across the Tisza, hide in buses or trucks just to avoid getting to the war?

- Criminal liability. We are experiencing an era of recruiting: The 3rd Assault Regiment, Azov, the Offensive Guard Brigade “Frontier”, the Offensive Guard Brigade "Khartia", the 28th, 58th, 66th Brigades are all offering recruitment options. This list could be continued. They are even exiting abroad to recruit the Ukrainian citizens who fled mobilization. And that's appropriate. If a person exited the country legally, everything is OK. Three children, disabilities, business, political beliefs, other circumstances. This is normal. People will exit Ukraine, solve their issues, and return. People should be recruited and encouraged. This is, you know, a recruitment campaign, in which there should be no lies, a political campaign, in which there should be no lies, it should be completely transparent, so that a man understand what he will be in after he joins the military.

Many citizens fear about what will happen to them if they are wounded, injured, become disabled, fear that the country will abandon them, that they will not be needed by anyone. Many people are unaware that, in Ukraine, there is a Veterans’ Fund that provides business start-up grants to Russo-Ukrainian war veterans, combatants. The grant is significant, amounting up to UAH 3 million. That is, one receives this grant, starts up a business and begins making a living. The Fund also provides legal and psychological support, offers a variety of training courses, there are many people to turn to. This needs to be talked about, be advertised.

Moreover, people can contact the Ministry for Veterans’ Affairs. Lots of brigades provide patronage services for such people. The recruiting system needs to be made interactive, let’s say so, when a person visits its website and learns all the information he needs. He can come to a recruiting center, take a Javelin, a dummy Javelin, and try himself in the role of an anti-tank gunner. Then he can take an FPV drone simulator to try himself as a drone operator, then sit at the intercept operator’s workstation with downloaded actual Russian communications. The man can listen, can shoot; an armored personnel carrier simulator is installed in one place, a tank simulator in another; people come, become interested. And he’s like “I feel like I’ve been a tank driver all my life”, another one says he specialized in the IT field; then they imagine jumping into a T-72 tank and going to liberate Kursk or defend Pokrovsk. Or one can feel like being an FPV drone operator, or an anti-tanker gunner. But never must you lie, but tell people: It will not be easy learning basic military skills. Sergeants will shout at you, body armor will seem like too heavy to wear, sand will get stuck under your helmet. But then, at the end of it all, you'll be pleased with yourself after returning from a combat mission. And you will understand that you are involved in writing the modern history of the whole world.

- What do you think of the mobilization of convicted prisoners? Do you support this? Would you agree to take former prisoners to serve in your unit?

- I wonder why this has not been done earlier. Seriously, this should have been done earlier. As Taras Shevchenko said: study, read, learn from others, do not shy away from your own. The Russian Federation began doing so even before the full-scale invasion, maybe they mobilized convicted prisoners to their Wagner army. Then the full-scale invasion began, it evolved into a arge-scale operation. This is up to a unit leader to decide. If you understand that these are not violent crimes nor serious crimes, you understand that a person can be effective, you talk to him, you take a responsibility for him... I, for example, would take such people, would fight shoulder to shoulder with them. Someone from Ukrainian politicians said a long time ago that if a person is effective here and now, in this place, then never talk about his past. That is, you should look at him through the lens of time. He could have committed a theft, hijacked a car, for instance, but we will take him, considering that he is proficient in fast driving, for example...  A commander speaks to him and makes a decision. Everything is up to the unit commander.

- Could you tell about your experience communicating with former prisoners?

- From my experience of interrogating captured Wagner soldiers: the Russian Federation used very similar tactics, they sent them into battles as cannon fodder. When we captured a Wagnerian, he didn't know anything, he didn't even know where he was, why that large number of them were captured. You take him and just talk to him for 5 minutes - and you understand that he honestly tells you that he knows nothing. They were taken from prison, flew to Voronezh in IL-76s, from Voronezh, first in KAMAZ trucks, then in helicopters they were brought to currently Russian occupied Ukraine. Then they were redeployed, again in tented KAMAZ trucks, to the Bakhmut front, for example; there were lots of them. The next day they went on an offensive onslaught, something went wrong, someone was shot and killed, they went assaulting again... He simply does not have information. Among the captured there were company leaders, and, you know, they all shared information with us, no one hid it. We reminded him that he had been given medical care, water, cigarettes - and we start speaking. We sat down, and there were company commanders who showed the locations of their control, observation, and patrol bases. In other words, they understood that there was no point in lying to me, that all the information provided could be verified. They all, from officers to soldiers, were telling what they knew, were sharing the information they had.

-- Now that our interview is coming to an end, can I offer you a blitz? I ask you short questions, you give me short answers, OK?

- As in an interrogation of a prisoner.

- I have not had such an experience yet, but you have. How would you describe what freedom is, in three words?

- The 3rd Operational Battalion, which is dubbed as Freedom Battalion. You know, blitz questions are so difficult to answer. Freedom in three words? War, death, life.

- What was the most valuable experience in your life?

- 2014, when I decided to join the Defense Forces of Ukraine.

- What is a perfect commander like?

- Motivated, well educated. He must be proficient in his field, must be good in his work, must be honest, first of all, with himself and with his soldiers.

- What motivates you every day?

- Ukraine.

- Your biggest fear?

- Perhaps, you know, one of such fears, it may sound so political, perhaps very banal, is that we, in our country, will lose this unity, the unity of these eight hours at the beginning of a full-scale invasion.

- What does the word “comrade-in-arms” signify for you?

- Confidence.

- When was the last time you relaxed?

- At the beginning of the full-scale invasion. When a tank was shooting at us, we, 12 soldiers, intended to storm an enemy’s company. I thought this tank would kill me, then I relaxed for 20 seconds. And I remember my state of mind: ultimate pacification, relaxation and... acceptance of the situation.

- I expected to hear something else. But... Okay. Finally, what is your most cherished dream in life?

- I said already: I can forget about my phone for a week. When I take it, there will be messages like: my comrades left for the Carpathians or for Egypt for rest and recovery, or someone returned home to Kyiv from the Carpathians. But the messages are different with some of my comrades-in-arms. They typically begin with questions like: are you still alive? The absence of such messages will mean that the war is over.

Interviewed by Diana Slavinska

Photo via Illya Rusachkov