Chargé d'Affaires ad interim of Poland in Ukraine Piotr Lukasiewicz

Since September 1, the Polish Embassy in Ukraine has been led by Piotr Lukasiewicz, 52, a Colonel in reserve. He remains a temporary chargé d'affaires ad interim as President Duda is yet to formally appoint him to the position of Ambassador. Nevertheless, it is Lukasiewicz, the former Ambassador of Poland to Afghanistan (2012-2014), who is deployed in Kyiv, performing all the relevant functions of the chief of the diplomatic representation.

Piotr Lukasiewicz chose to give Ukrinform his first interview to Ukrainian media since his arrival. The conversation turned out to be frank and elaborate enough. The diplomat did not avoid sharp questions, taking time to explain to the Ukrainian audience plenty of interesting nuances of bilateral relations, shedding light on Warsaw's vision of Ukraine's future in NATO and important steps required on the way to the EU. Undoubtedly, the focus was on countering Russian aggression and assistance from allies. It was also about Poland supporting Ukrainian veterans and his admiration for modern-day Heroes of Ukraine. The interview separately focused on painful issues of history, which Lukasiewicz believes may "haunt" Ukrainian-Polish relations until they are fully resolved.

PROTOCOL ISSUE OF MY POSITION IN EMBASSY IS MINOR FOR ME

- Thank you for coming here today. Nice talking to you.

- Thank you for the invitation. This is my first time in the Ukrainian media. I used to be a journalist too. So, I really appreciate what you are doing for Ukraine and for your Armed Forces. And I have a great respect for people who cover the war, being out there with soldiers and trying to inform the society and international partners of the struggle that you are going through right now.

- I appreciate that feedback. My first question that’s of interest to our audience is this. Given this ongoing row between government and president around the appointment of ambassadors, including to Ukraine, given that President Duda does not approve new ambassadors, you remain in the rank of charge d’affairs ad interim. Does it affect any way your work here and we will be able to see you as a full-fledged Ambassador to Ukraine after this crisis is resolved?

First, I would rather start with some major issues rather than the small protocol or my speaking about my personal situation. So let me start with this. I came here more than a month ago with very strong conviction and very strong understanding that Ukraine is going to win this war. And I'm here, as a representative of Poland, to support this sacred cause of defending territory, defending sovereignty, defending independence against a very brutal and very morally corrupt invasion from your bad neighbor, Russia, which is also our bad neighbor.

I'm a former military so, I felt the most important was to actually see the Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine and talk to them, trying to somehow convey to them the message from Polish government. Polish people, the Polish civil society, which I was part of before I came to Ukraine, that we are here with you, we feel for you, and we will support Ukraine. Not “for as long as, as it takes” – this is the cliché saying, usual words from abroad – we are here for you to be victorious, to win this war, to prevail, and to stay a strong, democratic, and wealthy country in the future transatlantic organizations, as our co-partner in this transatlantic democratic environment.

I’d also like to add that people sometimes accuse me that I speak too much from my personal background, from my personal professional experience. But yes, I think this is the correct tool to use for me as a diplomat. I also happen to be a veteran of the few wars of 21st century that Poland participated in – Afghanistan, the Balkans, Iraq, and other places. And my strongest desire here is actually that Poland be a leader of the effort to help Ukrainian veterans, the people who are right now defending their Homeland and soon they will be an important part of the society, I would even say the elite. That needs to be taken care of in terms of medical support, all kinds of things that they need on a daily basis, but also to help them as a partners, as a strong factor in the democratic society. 

To your question about my position, again, this is really minor issue for me, because I feel very strong support from Foreign Minister Sikorski. I have a very good contact with him. He sent me here, he previously sent me to Afghanistan, and now he sent me to Ukraine with the understanding that demanding environment like Ukraine right now requires someone with some strategic, military background, to understand better how we can support a fighting nation. This is what I did previously as a diplomat, and that’s what I'm going to do right now, here in Ukraine.

Also, I was received brilliantly by the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry. I met Minister Sybiha, and the then-Minister Kuleba before that. I feel no obstacles, no problems with working and feeling like a full representative of my home country Poland in your friendly neighbor country, Ukraine.

WHEN UKRAINE JOINS EU, IT MAY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE GAPS THAT WERE NOT FILLED

- Speaking of leadership that you mentioned, starting January 1st, Poland starts its EU presidency. What will be the main priorities of your presidency and where will Ukraine be on that agenda. Will the EU Ukraine Summit be held during that presidency?

- It’s a really symbolic time. Our first Polish presidency of European Union was in 2011. And it was actually then when Ukraine concluded its Association Agreement with the European Union. Now it’ll be our second presidency that starts in January, and people wish to repeat the example of a very good progress that we made 13 years ago.

But, of course, the situation right now is different, in a sense that Ukraine is no longer just associated with the European Union. It’s an aspiring country that wants to be part of it. So right now it's not only about declarations, some nice words around it, but rather concrete steps to be taken. Ukraine, in some time, will become a full member of the European Union. Please do remember that.

An example of Poland is actually quite correct here. It took 10 years for us to join in 2004. So it's a long process.

Of course, I'm not saying that Ukraine will also follow this example of 10 years, but this time we have to make it right, and we have to make concrete steps, including preparing Ukraine to correct its legislation and its whole system actually to become a member of this economic, political, cultural, democratic family of Europe.

We are just about to finish the so-called monitoring process, which was started by the European Commission in June 2024. In will end around December, and with our presidency, we can start opening so-called clusters, or chapters, of the accession. The first is most difficult one, so-called fundamentals, which includes all issues of higher value: democracy, rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of media, all these things that actually make member states of the European Union not only a club of economically-oriented countries but rather the family of the like-minded nations.

The Polish example is quite interesting to this end. It took us a long time actually not to prove to our partners that Poland is ready or that we are good in this school of aspiring democratic countries, but actually to really transform our system, so we can survive and flourish in the EU environment. So it's not just a matter of declarations, it's not a matter of some summit where politicians will meet and shake hands, it’s about a transformation of the system, transformation of the country. When you join, you might have problems if you don't really fill up the gaps that you had as a new member.

NATO IS A ZONE OF PEACE, AND I WANT UKRAINE TO GET THERE

- Accession process to the EU is indeed a long one, it’s a bureaucratic process. We understand that. But joining NATO is more about the political will of all Allies. We have been receiving major support for NATO. But the formal invitation is yet to come. Can we expect Poland to be one of the champions of promoting the idea of Ukraine becoming part of this very important Alliance?

- If there was an Olympic game in terms of who is the better supporter of Ukraine on its way to NATO, Poland would be…

- On the pedestal?

- On the pedestal, exactly. Probably the first one, maybe with our competitors in this regard from the Baltic States. There's a long-standing Polish wisdom that was formulated by Jerzy Giedroyc, a Polish politician in exile, an opposition figure during the Communist times: “There is no Free Poland without free Ukraine”. So this is the kind of a foundation stone for our policy. So for us, it's a strategic issue that, at some point, Ukraine will be not only a strong country on our Eastern border, but also a member of the pact, the Alliance. That is truly a miracle of Polish history what happened in 1999. I wish this miracle also happens in Ukraine – that Ukraine steps from the zone of war to the zone of peace.

We were lucky, thanks to the founding fathers of Polish democracy in the 1990s to jump this train and switch the historical sites. It’s much harder now for Ukraine because it's much later. It's a bit different historical situation and you have a war right now. But I'm very much sure that that Ukraine – again, as I said before – will win the war and be a member of NATO, and it will be in the zone of peace, that NATO is kind of creating, serving as an umbrella.

There are great expectations of what's coming in the nearest months, when it comes to the positive decision on the invitation and the opening of the NATO accession process. As I said, there is no better advocate in this regard than Poland because if you put yourself in our shoes, in our position, this is our vital interest. It is the interest of the Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia as well.

THE DECISION TO SHOOT DOWN RUSSIAN MISSILES OVER UKRAINE HAS TO BE TAKEN AT NATO LEVEL

- Minister Sikorski said the other day that from the U.S. missile defense base, which will soon become operational in Redzikówo, it will be possible to shoot down not only Iranian missiles targeting the US and its allies, but also Russian missiles flying toward Poland. Could this suggest that a decision may soon be made at the level of Poland and several allies – or NATO in general – to use it to shoot down Russian missiles, heading in Poland’s direction, over western Ukraine as well?

- What the minister said and meant is this. The base in Redzikowo in northern Poland is the project that was conceived nearly a decade ago, being basically designed as a way of shooting down, Iranian missiles flying potentially towards the United States. That was the original idea behind it, when the George Bush administration invented this. It is designed to shoot down ballistic, intercontinental missiles threatening the United States. Right now, the transformation is that the base is also to shoot down intercontinental or ballistic missiles flying toward deeper Europe. It focuses on those huge missiles rather than drones or other kinds of missiles. So it's technically something different from what you ask.

What we can do regarding the Kinzhals, Kh-type missiles that are destroying Ukraine so badly, targeting civilian infrastructure, is that Allies can provide more equipment like Patriots or NASAMS, and other types of missile defense systems that are already there and are being used very skillfully by Ukrainian defenders. So there is a difference in technical capabilities.

The idea of shooting down Russian missiles over Ukraine, I know it has to be explained to the Ukrainian audience. In the media space, it sounds desired, but technically, it's quite difficult to achieve. The first thing, technical obstacles are quite important here. On the Polish territory we don't have enough capabilities to protect our own airspace. We are just in the middle of building such a multi-layered air defense system. So this is the first technical issue. Second, it has to be an allied decision rather than bilateral one. And that was expressed by the U.S. Defense Department spokesperson and NATO leaders, that it has to be an allied decision rather than bilateral one.

It would mean that NATO comes into direct conflict with Russia. I know it's a difficult story to hear in Ukraine, but it's also necessary to explain to your viewers that NATO is not in the war with Russia. NATO is supporting Ukraine to the fullest possible way and will help Ukraine defend its territory as much as possible, to the victory.

THE EXAMPLE OF BUCHA PROVES YOU CANNOT CEDE A SINGLE KILOMETER OF YOUR LAND

- Another question on defense. Prime Minister Tusk announced the start of the "East Shield" program to protect Poland's eastern borders from potential aggression. Will its elements appear only on the border with Russia and Belarus, or will certain elements also be seen on the border with Ukraine? Is the experience of Ukraine's fight against Russian aggression being taken into account when building the “East Shield”?

- The Shield is meant to defend Poland against the possible incursion from Russia and Belarus. The origins of this this project come from the effort to protect against direct aggression, especially from the Belarus territory, where the regime is bringing migrants from several countries in the Middle East and Africa. It sounds very bad, but they are actually importing people to invade Polish territory. So that's why we built a so-called barrier between Poland and Belarus.

The East Shield is a development of that original idea to prepare the territory in terms of fortifications, barriers, and resilience of the local communities – preparing shelters, all that kinds of things. This is directly drawn from the Ukrainian experience. We observe.

The practical example of Bucha and Irpin taught us all in Europe, especially in Poland, that you just cannot afford murderers and rapists getting into the territory of our country. You cannot spare a single kilometer of the territory because then the cruelty happens as we know. So this is our big lesson from the Ukrainian war, so that’s why we are spending 10 billion for the next five years to build these defenses. By the way, the Fins, Latvians, and Lithuanians are doing the same.

POLAND WILL GIVE UKRAINE THE REST OF MIG JETS AFTER ALLIES PROVIDE REPLACEMENT PLANES

- Turning to defense in Ukraine and all the assistance being provided. During a recent visit to Kyiv, Sikorski said that the Mig fighter jets remaining in service with the Polish Air Force might be handed over to Ukraine. Do you have any information whether this might happen before year-end?

- We are in the process of preparing various donations for Ukraine. Poland has already donated spare parts and Mig 29 airplanes in the past two years. Poland actually was the first to call on allies to donate something heavier than Javelins. I mean, tanks, Mig-29s, and older airplanes. So the question right now is how to ensure gap fillers, this is a military term.

We have around 10 to 15 of these planes that are still being used as part of our air defense in Poland. Poland is now undergoing through immense transformation of our Air Force. We are buying new stuff from our partners – F-16s and F-35s. But still we are in the middle of this process so we cannot afford losing even those 10 Mig-29s because we would feel unprotected, our sky would be unprotected.

What we are trying to do, having the strategic goal of supporting Ukraine in mind, we are trying to call on our allies, either on bilateral or allied way, to help us fill the gaps that the transfer of Migs would create. Basically, it means that that our allies should send some squadrons of other airplanes to Poland to give us the time to build our own capacity in this sense, so we can transfer the Migs that are so much needed by Ukrainian pilots.

WE STAND READY TO TRAIN UKRAINIAN RECRUITS BUT UKRAINE MUST FIRST ENROLL THE REQUIRED NUMBER OF TROOPS

- We have the campaign going on where Ukrainians are recruited to the Ukrainian Army in Poland while you undertake to train them. When can the training start of the first group of Ukrainians recruited into the Ukrainian Army as part of the campaign currently taking place in Lublin?

- This would be really a good question for the Ukrainian diplomats in Poland because Ukraine as a state is the operator of this project, which means that it's up to Ukraine and authorities in Poland, diplomats as well. But Ukraine actually has to gather people necessary to feel a battalion, regiment, or whatever size of a unit it would take.

We provide space, as you mentioned, the place in Lublin as a kind of a meeting point for the possible members of this unit. And hopefully, the process will pace up and the numbers will grow.

That's my hope, because we are ready with instructors, we are ready with equipment, we are ready with facilities to train people. We would like to really have this unit to be as big and as well prepared as possible.

You already have this so-called Lithuanian Polish Ukrainian Brigade that has great experience in training thousands, tens of thousands Ukrainian soldiers in Poland

UKRAINE’S ENERGY SECURITY AMONG GOALS AND AMBITIONS FOR POLAND’S EU PRESIDENCY

- While the war is in progress, winter is coming and Poland has been greatly helping Ukraine in terms of energy sustainability, supplying generators, transformers, and equipment to restore our power grid. It also supports EU initiatives to help Ukraine shift to sustainable renewables. How do you assess the current role Poland plays in this regard and maybe could you shed light on some new initiatives to make our energy grid more sustainable in the face of those ongoing attacks?

- This is very interesting question, actually, because, as you already mentioned, generators and other material assistance is already flowing from Poland and other European partners.

The EU treats this possible danger of the harsh winter very seriously. But it's also a question of what Poland can do extra in this process. So, for instance, we are asking our Ukrainian colleagues in the Ministry of Energy to facilitate the export of energy, of the actual current, from our power plants, especially coal power plants. We are urging our Ukrainian partners in the ministry to ease the so-called auction system of energy supplies. And we are hoping very much that they conclude the relevant negotiations as soon as possible.

Second thing when it comes to energy during our presidency is energy safety in Ukraine. It’s one of the three pillars of our goals and Ambitions during our presidency. And also, we are just about to finish the transformation of the Ukrainian grid that can in the future be synchronized with the European system.

- Overall, for its upcoming presidency of the EU, Poland identified as one of its key priorities the full halt of Russian energy imports to Europe. What might be the main challenges on the way to this?

- I'm not an expert in importing resources from Russia, but I'm pretty sure that December or January will be the last month of gas imports from Russia. There is some remaining amount of gas being supplied right now. But we have to take into consideration that there are countries like Austria, Hungary, Slovakia that still rely on gas supplies from Russia. In the Union, we have to take care of every single market, every single country in this regard.

So this is the challenge, but I was informed from Poland, that it will be a practical goal to cut the supplies once and for all. And it will really hurt and weaken the Kremlin.

RUSSIA BRAINWASHING ABDUCTED CHILDREN AND MAY LATER USE THEM AS SOLDIERS

- Returning to politics in general, Ukraine is actively working both on military strategy, in particular through the Victory Plan, and on diplomatic initiatives, such as the Peace Formula put forward by President Zelensky. Poland has already demonstrated its strong support for Ukraine. How do you assess Poland's role in supporting these two initiatives? What do you see as the prospects for the further promotion of the Peace Formula, in particular in the context of the preparation of the second Peace Summit?

- In his speeches, including in the UN, Minister Sikorski spoke of the Ukrainian children and crimes against humanity that Russia commits in Ukraine, especially in terms of kidnapping kids, brainwashing them, and even possibly using them as good soldiers of the Kremlin.

So you have the public messaging in this sense that you will not find a better advocate than Mr. Sikorski in eloquently presenting the case of children, civilian victims missile attacks, including the horrific one a couple months back in Lviv where a beautiful family died and the father was left alone, burying his three daughters and a beautiful wife.

We are not only speaking about this, we are sending prosecutors. There is a very robust cooperation between our prosecutors and the Prosecutor General of Ukraine in this sense.  

When it comes to Victory Plan, we already covered extensively the question of Ukraine joining NATO, which has to be repeated on and on, that Poland supports you, Poland wants Ukraine to be in NATO. So, the first point is that we are the best supporter of this idea.

We support bringing war criminals to Justice, we are supporting the most fantastic thing you can do, which is a western society actually financing the defense of Ukraine with Kremlin money. It's a quite funny idea that we will use this money as a West against the brutal invasion.

DURING YOUR COUNTEROFFENSIVE IN 2023, SOME DEMINING EQUIPMENT WAS FROM POLAND

- Another area of your support is demining. You know, nearly 30 percent of our territory is contaminated with mines and UXOs. Poland does support Ukraine in the effort to clear our land of mines, including through technical, financial assistance, the transfer of special equipment, and training for Ukrainian sappers. In addition, Poland participates in international initiatives aimed at clearing territories of mines. Does Poland plan to expand such support?

- It’s quite difficult to demine the country that is currently suffering such a brutal and truly first-world-war scale invasion. So demining is something that, as far as I know, takes place rather in a peace time rather than amid war.

But I’m proud to say that when you had your counter-offense in 2023, some of the demining systems that were being used to some extent successfully by Ukrainians, was coming from Poland.

When it comes to civilian demining, this is something different than the military operation. We are supporting the Ukrainian Emergency Service. And there is also a very robust, very deep assistance from our firefighters to your great people, and it’s not only about demining, it’s about addressing the consequences of Russian airstrikes and so on.

EVERYTHING ENDANGERING HUMANITARIAN OR MILITARY SUPPLIES AT BORDER WILL BE TREATED AS A THREAT TO CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE

- In an interview with Ukrinform at the end of July, Ukrainian Ambassador to Poland Vasyl Zvarych said both Poland and Ukraine drew the right conclusions from the situation of last year's border blocking by Polish farmers, and that such actions are seen as unacceptable. At the same time, early October, the State Customs Service of Ukraine was briefed by the Polish side on local farmers’ plans to go back to blocking freight traffic outside the "Medyka-Shehyini" checkpoint. So far, there’s been no blocking, but such risks to exist. How do the Polish authorities perceive such intentions of local farmers?

- Let me strike back with my question. Did anything like that happen? And was there this year a blockade of the of the border or was there any incident on a bigger scale rather than manifestation of people have the right to manifest? (The blockade of the Polish-Ukrainian border was run by Polish carriers from November 6, 2023, for two months as protesters demanded that the permits for Ukrainian freight carriers be reinstated and their number be reduced to the pre-war level. From February to April 2024, Polish farmers resorted to the blockade, protesting certain decisions of the European Commission regarding the import of agricultural and food products from Ukraine and demanded that a ban be imposed on their import to the Polish market, - ed.)

Nothing like that happened this year. Of course, I'm not saying that it will not happen because we’re a free country and people have a right to protest.  Sometimes they protest violently, like we saw last year. Then, prosecutors and police stepped in, and the legal process in this regard is still continuing.

An important thing happened this February, when Prime Minister Tusk announced that everything that could endanger or stop the flow of humanitarian or military equipment would be treated as an action against critical infrastructure. 

ON RUSSIA’S NUCLEAR RHETORIC: POLAND WILL NOT JOIN HANDS WITH CLOWNS

- One of the points of the diplomatic and strategic track is nuclear security and nuclear safety. Vladimir Putin has repeatedly threatened to use nuclear weapons, in particular hinting at possible strikes on Poland, which is causing concern in the region. In addition, the ongoing occupation of Zaporizhzhia NPP poses additional risks to the whole of Europe due to the possibility of a radiation disaster. How does Poland intend to respond to these threats, and what steps does it propose to increase international pressure on Russia to demilitarize nuclear facilities in Ukraine?

Have you seen these clowns on Russian TV shooting a virtual missile on London?

- Yes.

- So, these are propagandists, they are really clowns making stupid and brutal propaganda. That’s one thing. When you hear something like that coming from officials, like Mr. Putin, Mr. Ryabkov, Mr… whatever his name is, the guy who is always drunk…

- We know whom you’re talking about.

So either he's a clown too, or is he making real threats? In both situations, the way we’re reacting is we remain calm and say that we are part of the biggest, strongest nuclear-capable Alliance in the history of humankind and we are not to be threatened by anyone.

We know the history of Cold War, we know how close it was to the nuclear articulation. Neither me nor any polish politician would like to join hands with clowns and discussing these things. It's just It's a really low level of politics, and we are above it sky high.

IN TOUGH ISSUES OF HISTORY, WHEN EMOTIONS SPEAK, THE MIND SOMETIMES SLEEPS

- Speaking of history. We have this thing going on between Ukraine and Poland on different levels. Unfortunately, it went onto the political level, a complicated historical question of the Volyn tragedy that has had an impact on our bilateral relations. In Poland, the issue of exhumations of Polish victims of the Volyn tragedy is being discussed really actively. In Poland, at the official level, some say that the European integration of Ukraine will directly influence the agenda of the EU accession process, our relations… How to make sure that a complicated part of our history, which isn’t “black and white”, does not influence modern politics, especially considering that Russia has always exploited things like that to pit friendly nations against each other.

- Well, the Volyn question always haunts our history and also haunts our current relations. I’m the last person who would suggest to leave this to historians. That’s because historians failed on both sides to reach the agreement. It's a question for politicians. It's a question for historians. It's a question for civil society, for the ordinary people, for journalists as well, to talk about this issue in a serious, non-partisan, non-emotional way. Although I know how hard it is because it's an emotional thing. To imagine what happened in Volyn, what happened in our history that is going much longer than the Volyn period, the Volyn crime.

So I'm not skipping this question, I know how important it is. Our approach right now, which was formulated by Foreign Minister Sikorski on his recent visit is that it's not only a historical question, it's a civilizational question, a Christian question, a religious issue to bury the dead, to have a proper burial – be it Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jewish burial of the people that were murdered in the Second World War. This is our approach to issue.

Let me refer to our earlier discussion about the European Union being not a club of economic-oriented countries, but rather cultural civilizational-oriented countries. Imagine the “West”, something we were trying to enter in the 1990s and what you are entering right now, This is the “collective West” - Russians say it this way and I hate this this term, but anyway, this is the idea based, you have to say it, on the Christian values and Christian history of Europe in broadest sense. So we treat the ability to search for and to bury the dead as a western values thing, which should be achieved as soon as possible.

Second thing is the commemoration of history, right? So when the historians on both sides say that we have this commemoration and you have that commemoration, you have your national heroes... Okay, I would say I'm not choosing Ukrainian national heroes. I rather value Heroes that are currently being created by this war, rather than referring to your Heroes from the past. This is my take.

The true Heroes of Ukraine are being created right now, defending the country, and I want to support them. I feel for them. I’m a former military and I understand what is to be to fighting for your homeland. So, these are the heroes of Ukraine I really cherish and value.

When it comes to the commemoration of history, this is, again, a question of emotions. And when emotions speak, the mind sleeps sometimes. So that's why we are trying to separate this issue. And we know that the effort in this sense must be done by both sides. And probably, we are ready to participate in such an effort.

But again, it's a different story of monuments, plaques, words being written on these monuments, and a different story of the proper Christian burial – Christian Jewish, Muslim, or atheist – that those remains deserve.

EUROPEAN HISTORY IS FULL OF BLOOD BUT NATIONS HAVE MANAGED TO FIND UNDERSTANDING

- The Ukrainian Institute of National Remembrance appealed to the Cabinet with a request to allocate 1 million hryvnias to search for the victims of the Volyn tragedy following appeals from Polish citizens. In your opinion, can this initiative by the Ukrainian side be the first step on the way to achieving understanding between Ukraine and Poland?

- So we heard there’ll be an Excel form that needs to be filled and then it can be put in a plan for next year. Okay, we already heard that previously. So we are just waiting… I understand that exhumations are not being blocked here.

Some Ukrainian YouTubers are claiming that Ukraine is not blocking exhumations. I get that. What you are blocking is the search for the remains. And this is what we would really like to be lifted, to allow families to search for their relatives, to properly bury them. As I said before, this is the sacred thing to do, especially for families.

I hope for the step to be taken and then we will have this discussion again, and again, and again. until we find ourselves in the European Union which is the great equalizer of the historical memory and the thing that made European Union possible.

Look, Poles and Ukrainians – very heated history, very troubled history. But look at Germans and French. Look at Germans and Poles. Look at Germans and Jews. And there were really murders in our collective European history. This is a history full of blood, but yet, these people, including Poles and Germans, were at some point able to overcome it. We still have some problems with that, it’s not like the German-Polish history is fully resolved, it takes time, obviously. But the civilizational fundament of the European Union is that we cherish the same values – Western values, Christian values, Muslim, Jewish values and so on.

- Now back to modern history. Since the start of the full-scale invasion, Poland has demonstrated immense support for Ukrainians, especially for those fleeing the war, those forced to flee their homes. You accepted so many displaced Ukrainians. The latest poll by the Polish CBOS center shows a significant drop in support for Ukrainians in Poland, for example, on the issue of accepting displaced Ukrainians (94% in February 2022, 54% in September 2024). What do you think has caused such a trend?

- It would take probably 30 something million answers to respond to that question. If someone tells me that I've had enough of Ukraine, I would say, look, Ukrainians don't have enough of the war. They are fighting an existential war so we have to support them.

There are voices, of course, that create this public opinion slips. It actually jumps depending on the situation. I don't have an answer, I'm not really in favor of commenting on public opinions. What I know, what I hear in Ukraine from Ukrainians is great words about what was done in the last two years by Poland, by the Polish side. It depends on whom you are asking. When I talk to a Polish NGO supporting veterans here, psychologists, brilliant young ladies that are coming here, working with Ukrainian veterans and their families, I don't see any slip of effort, slip of support for Ukraine.

I'm the supporter of Ukraine. And I I'm not tired of that, I don't have any anti-Ukrainian or whatever opinion. Look at such people rather than just try to assess mathematical numbers.

SUPPORTING VETERANS IS A NOBLE THING FOR POLAND

- I wanted to learn a little bit more about your initiatives to help Ukrainian veterans, I see you really care about their future, their well-being, mental and physical. What are the NGOs set up to this end? Or are those efforts part of a government initiative?

- There are many. I'm a government guy so I would rather start with the one effort sponsored by government, it’s called Solidarity Fund. This is part of our foreign ministry’s effort, which operates with European funds, and which is the institution in Ukraine, and there are representatives here in Kyiv, actually working on some form of model, systematic solutions to the veterans’ problems.

We started in Rivne region. We are just about to open veterans’ centers in Zhytomir, few other regions, including in Dnipropetrovsk one. There will be four or five local veterans’ hubs at the level of territorial communities where a veteran can come, get medical help with prosthetics or mental health, and so on. So this is the Solidarity Fund that is operating under the foreign ministry.

We have NGOs, as I’ve mentioned already, these beautiful ladies from the Vilnyi Vybir team. This is the Ukrainian NGO working a Polish NGO from Vroclaw that is actually sponsoring Vilnyi Vybir here in Ukraine. They are psychologists working here. There’s PAH – Polish Humanitarian Action.

There are many, many other organizations, such as the Center of Veterans, supported by our MoD institutions. I actually know the list by heart because next week I’m going to Warsaw to participate in the Veterans Forum. So, the list of organizations from the Polish side is quite long. They are trying to focus on this particular issue here. Because this is a noble thing to do for Poland, especially with our own veteran experience. This is a noble and humanitarian thing to do.

But it's also a beautiful thing because it opens many spaces that you can work with. It's an economic issue for instance. There are companies here looking for people to hire. Why don't we train and hire veterans for that? So it's a economic aspect. There are all kinds of social aspects to it, socio-political aspects. If you help veterans, you really create people who understand the value of the Polish-Ukrainian relations.

I'm so excited about it because it's not only a medical thing to support veterans. It's also something much bigger on the economic and social levels. There are many possibilities here, which I'm really excited to support and tirelessly work on in my next four years.

- Thanks for doing this noble thing. And we do agree that veterans are our elite of the current time and the for the future. And thank you for coming here to Ukrinform.

- And it's been a pleasure talking to you.

Ievgen Matiushenko, Kyiv

Photo: Pavlo Bahmut