Dmytro Finashyn, call sign Fin, is rightly considered to represent perfectly the spirit of the Ukrainian nation and people, their grit, bravery, and indomitability. With this interview Ukrinform held as part of its Victory Commanders project we took an opportunity to talk to a Hero of Ukraine, gain firsthand insight into what military service amid war is like, the challenges he encountered while fighting on the frontline, and his miraculous rescue, when he, severely wounded, was crawling for two days through a gray zone to finally get to a Ukrainian position. For a while, Fin was considered dead, but the courageous warrior survived. Even in the face of severe trials, including amputation, Dmytro, after recovery, is now back in the army, serving as UAV analyst.
What motivates Dmytro Finashyn to continue in defense of Ukraine? Our guest was very frank talking about his sentiments and beliefs, highlighting the situation on the frontline, the challenges of mobilization for war, unauthorized absence from unit or place of service, soldier motivation, combat training, and how it is like to be a commander in a modern war.
- How did you become a soldier in the military? Did you fight in the Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO)? Where did the all-out war catch you and what were you feeling at that moment?
- Actually, I didn’t fight in the ATO proper, because I got into the war when its status had already been changed for Joint Forces Operation (JFO). Since 2015, I served on a contract basis in the National Guard of Ukraine (NGU). What motivated me to sign the contract was conviction that I was needed in the military, could not make myself stay away from what was going on. I had friends, comrades who were serving, fighting, so I felt uncomfortable in front of them, in front of myself. And at the age of 21, I got into a public security military unit. I began learning the art of warfighting, choosing what is more to my liking, and, in 2018, I got into the NGU’s Kulchytsky Battalion - an operational battalion that was constantly at war, has undergone multiple transformations and never left the war zone ever since 2014. I liked it to be with them, they were motivated, cool guys, charged up, and so I was transferred to service with their unit.
- What kind of combat missions did you perform during the Joint Forces Operation?
- I got on rotation as part of a counter-sniper group, served as an UAV pilot within an aerial reconnaissance platoon. This being the case, my task was to fly, search out and detect, track down routes, paths the enemy was using, identify the locations potentially suitable for enemy firing positions... There were previous generations of drones utilized at that time, so I operated a DJI Phantom-3 UAV, performed tasks using these drones before I transferred to a Mavic. On a parallel track, I was doing fire adjustment, particularly for mortars. The first time I performed a task of this kind was for Da Vinci Wolves. Da Vinci men attended every such task being performed, I was adjusting fire for a mortar of theirs.
- Did you go on rotation prior to the full-scale invasion? Were you expecting at the time that things would unfold like that?
- We understood that we were on the verge of a grand upheaval, probably did not want even to imagine how large-scale it would be. When going on rotation on February 23, 2022, we saw lots of artillery guns moving into positions, being deployed to front-line towns, to forests, and it was precisely in the East where everyone were getting prepared to encounter troops, Russian Federation’s troops. We too were thinking about it; their information hygiene at that time was maintained at the highest level, they were meticulously camouflaged, did not give out their intentions. That is, most of them were even unaware of where they were moving, what would happen. And this made it a little bit hard for me, an infantryman, to comprehend the full extent of the situation.
- So you expected that the offensive would come from the East, but it happened otherwise. What enabled the country to survive at that time?
- It was thanks first and foremost to the mobilization of the population, that is, a lot of people came to the defense of the country, it was a large army of newcomers who could ensure its functioning in the first place. Secondly, the Russians themselves were not ready, did not expect the resistance would be that great, and that was what helped us a lot. After suffering their first defeats, they often moved away, like they needed to get their plans and tactics amended, or because they were scared to die here, this sort of things, you know. It is now that they don’t play such games anymore, like they are ready to die, will go and die, no choice. It is no longer the case now, and this was helpful.
- Did you serve as a marksman at that time already? Could you tell us about the tasks you were doing during the initial days of the full-scale invasion?
- Actually, the first time we encountered the adversary in a direct clash (force-to-force engagement, fire contact) was on March 8. They launched an assault on a dam where we were holding defense. It was the Kharkiv region, the only dam across the Oskil River that was left intact, could not be blown up, because the area of potential flooding would be huge. And at some point, after several reconnaissance missions, the Russians drove towards us in an armored column comprised of more than 17 tanks (this was the number I had the time to count, because they were moving through a village, by a winding road). A clash followed, they attempted to storm and take control of the dam, but failed. Mine barriers had worked out perfectly, the Russians lost a certain number of their vehicles blown up. Anyway, they were able to drive around the wrecked vehicles and reach the dam, but got stuck into a barrier of huge concrete blocks that were too heavy to be town away with tanks. Knowing this, they engaged us with fire, then drove away; we were chasing them in an attempt to get them finished off.
- In 2022, you were declared dead after having suffered a severe wound. This is a story you are telling often. Have you found the answer to the question of what made you stay alive?
- You see, I will never be able to learn the answer, the true one... nature, willpower, instinct to survive - this is perhaps what had the key role to play, plus my body. I was wounded first in a right hand finger, but anyway I was able to hold my weapon, hold the area assigned to me, and at that moment it flew into my index finger. When evacuating a wounded soldier, a bullet penetrates through my helmet. I found myself somewhere in the enemy's line of fire, in a field with young wheat sprouts, very short sprouts, just below my knees. And we were crawling across this field, saving the wounded man, and an enemy machine gunner was simply spraying the field with indiscriminate fire because he didn’t know where exactly we were. At some point, three bullets hit me. Finger, helmet… I understand that I am in the line of fire, but I need to move, and so I lie on my stomach, begin crawling back, and at some point it flies into my left arm, breaks the bone, causes a multiple fracture. The bone is completely shattered, the arm bends in one more place where it isn’t supposed to, and that's it - an artery is broken, accompanying injuries, the bullet came out of the body, pierced through it, through soft tissues, but fortunately, didn't touch the bones. The guys put a tourniquet on me, blood loss, I had tunnel vision already, accompanied by other problems, and it turns out that one of our guys dies, the other one gets lost somewhere in that forest, wounded, and I am left alone. The Russians relayed it to the deceased’s radio, our radio, to other radios of ours that they killed all of our wounded, that our Socrates is no longer alive. And the guys decide that it is necessary to evacuate those wounded who left there, that there is no point in continuing to fight for us to get out, to cover us with fire, and that's it, they retreat.
And so I remain in the status of a deceased, in a gray zone... I can't get up, my body just doesn't have enough blood, when I get up, blood begins flowing out of the wounds, and I blacked out, that is, the most I could do was a couple of steps in an upright position. I made several such attempts, fell down, then came to my senses, understood that I was wasting time and strength, so there was no point in trying to walk any further, and I realized that I would have to crawl forward like a worm, and so I did. To get things worse, I fell into a ditch, not an anti-tank ditch, but a natural one - a deep ditch, about three meters deep. I fell on my back and both lungs got crushed. Hydrothorax began – this is, when the lungs fill with excess fluid, you inhale, but because of the fluid, very little oxygen gets into your body, and you cannot inhale fully, “dog” breathing develops. And so I continued crawling with this “dog” breathing (this is very frequent short breathing). Night temperatures fell down to +4 C°, I am in the same clothes as I am now: same tunic, pants, I begin to freeze, go out like a light, come to my senses due to hypothermia, because I was freezing and shivering with cold. The body tries to warm up, but it does not work. And that is why I talked about the work of the brain, that it wants to save you, wants you to survive, and begins drawing hallucinations that force you to move.
- Did it happen to you?
- I was hallucinating for two days. That is, I come to my senses at night, due to the cold, and see a non-existent vehicle drawn by my hallucination. It is our vehicle, the one which brought us here for this mission. I see the three guys who were riding with me in that vehicle, and understand that they came after me. I start crawling towards them, even though I had no strength left. I thought that I had no strength left, but when you see that this is your chance for salvation, strength comes from somewhere, you know, adrenaline, the body starts working. You are crawling towards them through this forest belt all night long just to keep warm. I think it was my body who decided that I should live. At some point I was ready to give up, felt that I cannot endure it any longer. So I was lying there waiting for death, and my body’s like: no way, guy, crawl towards over there, and you’re like: okay.
- How has this situation changed you, your attitude towards life? Are there any moments from it that you would like to forget?
- I would like to recall every moment of it more vividly and in all the details, because over time it becomes blurred, and you already start to think (protective reaction of the brain): everything was not that scary, that tough. And when I replay this in my mind constantly, then at some hard moment of life I would recall the toughest hours of the past and think that it is not a hardship, but a short-lived trouble. So it is important to be remembered, and for me it is a lesson. A lesson that I’ve learned was that you need to live now. I always tried to think more strategically, but war teaches you otherwise. Now I probably don’t know how to think that much ahead, that far away, to plan and foresee something --your life, your actions, because you really have already experienced too much, understand that this all can end at any moment. You need to live now, live a bright life, try to grab every moment, because the next one may never come along.
- You were first conferred the title Hero of Ukraine posthumously, weren’t you?
- That’s not so. First, I was declared dead and remained in this status for two days before being declared missing (because there is no body, and where there is no body, you cannot be declared dead officially, just missing). So I was missing. But at that time my unit decided to nominate me for the title of Hero of Ukraine posthumously. But when they found me, they were like: cool, if he is alive, then let him be, so once the nomination has been submitted already, let it be for the living.
- What was your reaction to this?
- Negative, because this is an extremely high title. In my opinion, this was not enough for being conferred with the title Hero of Ukraine. I cannot say what is basically enough to be awarded the title of Hero of Ukraine... Because it is probably not about what one did, but more about some specific personality traits, about passionaries, patriots who do not value their lives, but absolutely devote themselves to their work for the sake of something higher, for the sake of the lives of others.
- Don’t’ you think you deserved this title?
- Well, I don't know, basically because I'm modest at times, but at times not. And at that moment I think that, probably, more was needed. Well, like, yes, I did survive. But I felt calmer when my former commander called me to congratulate on having been awarded that title by the President. And I tell him that, for some reason, I'm not happy about it at all. And he replies: don't worry, we agreed on you, submitted you, made a decision to submit you when you were still in the status of a deceased person, don't worry, it's not because you survived. I'm like: well, maybe, okay, then that's it, I have no more questions left.
- Have you already accustomed to being a Hero of Ukraine?
- Of course, I have, given the two years since I’d been awarded this title. And sometimes people are like: I saw you somewhere, but don’t remember where exactly. I'm like: forget it. I attended a conference recently. A military medic comes up and says: I've seen you somewhere, but don't remember where exactly. I say: maybe on Brothers, and he says like: oh, yeah, exactly. Recognizability entails accountability. You have to smooth out some corners. And if I ever want to yell at someone on the street, I won't.
- Or is it on the contrary?
- No. Our mass media fuel this up, but emphasis is not placed where it properly belongs. Someone once served as a conscript in the army, served one year and has been partying for 20 years; if he commits something inappropriate as a civilian, commits a crime, they will write: a former military man committed a crime. And it's the same here. Someone will publish a story online, and people will say, “Oh, that's him, just look how inappropriate he is, seems like having post-traumatic distress disorder. They describe this in a negative light. That's why I try to react to everything as calmly as possible, this maybe because I'm phlegmatic by nature.
- Tell me how your rehabilitation and recovery were going, and how do you generally assess this system in Ukraine?
- There are more problems than positive aspects. Basically, the healthcare quality in Ukraine is far from satisfactory and desirable. There used to be no rehabilitation treatment whatsoever since early 2014, although it was needed, had to be and could have been developed. There were precedents, albeit not so numerous, after the end of the intense phase [of fighting] in the East. There were wounds, injuries, and doctors could have learned and passed this experience on to others, but this wasn’t happening, sad to say. Appropriate rehabilitation centers were not built, regrettably. Now the situation has changed, it just could not go on like this any longer. Because all these people with wounds who, for example, are being discharged from service, are written off due to health conditions, they do not receive high-quality rehabilitation treatment. So it is a priori that these people will be dissatisfied with this system, will believe that when you were fighting on the frontline, you were needed, but once you have retired from service, you begin to be treated like a kind of secondary substance, there is no longer need to care for you. And when they provide quality medical care, when they put you back on your feet, help you adapt, specialize, provide not just physical care, but also mental care and support, you will believe that, in principle, it was worth fighting for...
- If we single out problems, and you said that there are lots of them, what are the most painful ones? What needs to be changed?
- Just a small percentage of wounded servicemen currently are lucky enough to receive high-quality rehabilitation. First, due to the huge influx of patients, for example, it is difficult to take care of everyone, to fully treat everyone. Second, it’s budgetary constraints. Third, these medical institutions, rehabilitation centers are limited in numbers. Now, thankfully, institutions of the civilian sector have become actively involved, but very few of them can provide treatment for free. Few of them rely for support on the State, and not all of the soldiers, not all of the wounded persons can afford this rehabilitation. But lots of new centers are currently being launched, opened by patrons across Ukraine, providing very high-quality medical care. These good examples need to be emulated, and the state, in principle, is emulating them, and little by little we will hopefully reach the level of rehabilitation that will be really high, will satisfy the needs of the state and the military. It remains a challenge for now, because this began to be developed amid the full-scale war, and even then not immediately after it began. Everything takes time.
- Let's talk about a concept such as post-war crisis.
- After a war comes to a close, an average 2.5-3 years pass before major problems begin to arise, such, for example, as suicides among the military, or, rather, veterans. Many of them ruin themselves with drink or narcotic drugs, etc. They constitute a priori negative element of society. Things get worse where a man has an unhealed, perhaps unspoken mental or psychic trauma of some kind, some very negative experience. These people begin creating problems for those surrounding them. And this is what we are in for, because a very large percentage of people who are now fighting are not provided treatment at regional centers or even district centers, where there are at least a certain staff of psychologists, or where there is a culture of turning to psychologists or psychiatrists where such an intervention is necessary. And many of them will get back home and start farming, there will be no one around to talk to about it. Society will tell them, will impose the narratives that are already being imposed: you are a warrior, a man, you fought, you must courageously and steadfastly bear all the burdens of military service. And he will live with this grief, and it will oppress him, will get accumulated.
- What are we supposed to do today to make the post-war crisis easier, how to help our warfighters?
- We should introduce a new culture of communication, not only among the military, but among the civilians too. That is, lots of people are in need of help, but they cannot diagnose the problem by themselves or admit that they really have some problems. A lot of people in Ukraine, 90 percent of people, already need psychological care, because no one's nervous system is made of iron. What is needed, what can we do? We can get these narratives altered, that is, people need to consult with qualified professionals.
- What’s your opinion about how people with amputees are perceived among the society?
- Basically, there is not too much reaction from the society as a whole to such people, like they are there and let them be, this is how I view it. It would not hurt the society to learn not to park their vehicles in places reserved for drivers with disabilities... It is just one example where the society should be mindful of others, not just of themselves.
- After the wounds you have suffered, you anyway decided to return to the army ranks. Why, given that you were entitled to go home and stay with family?
- I returned because the war is ongoing. I didn't expect the events would develop that way, that I would suffer injuries. I thought I would fight there, and then at some point would die somewhere in the war - and that's it. I didn't expect I would be back home anytime soon, back to a peaceful city. But I understand that all my friends, my inner circle, this bubble of mine, they are not out here, but out there. They are fighting, doing something, and it starts to bite you... I am of use to my country today, I am still involved in this war, I change the battlefield and that's it. I don't need anything more, in principle.
- You said above that the enemy in 2022 was not ready to encounter that great resistance. How has it changed over these three years? How have we changed?
- Firstly, the enemy's army as it was initially [at the onset of the all-out invasion], very little has left of it. New people have been recruited. Those who left in place have been learning from their mistakes on a daily basis. Technologically, this is a wholly different war, and the adversary has already adapted to it. Basically, the adversary has become even more bloodthirsty, better trained. This is now a very great army, they must not be underestimated. This situation is much underestimated by the world. If the world allowed our defeat to happen, it is going to encounter a very strong opponent. Immediately after this war is over, or, rather, when they (Russians) modernize their military and have enough forces and capabilities in place, it will be a truly terrible force. Such an enemy will be very difficult to defeat. They know where it is more suitable to assault with armored vehicles and where it is better to send infantry. They know the mechanisms of how to influence a motivated soldier, the one who doesn’t need to be forced into battle. Where a soldier is unmotivated, they know the mechanisms of how to intimidate him. In other words, this is a terrible enemy – very strong and well trained. They learn very well, very well, very quickly. They are very good at scaling up high-quality things that are now working in this war. For example, they are intensively scaling up fiber-optic-cable controlled FPV drones.
- Are Ukrainian engineers adapting to this? Are we developing fiber-optic-cable controlled drones of our own?
-We are developing these technologies indeed, and we have them already, albeit in smaller numbers, as far as I know. The problem with our drones is that they are largely made of imported components, mostly from China along with other suppliers. If China halted supplying these components, it will be a disaster, a tragedy for our army, because UAVs – first-person-view and munition dropping drones -- have effectively replaced artillery shells where these are in short supply. And so where there are no drones supplied, there is no war fought.
- What are we supposed to do for UAV technology to develop? And in general, to what extent have we already revealed this potential?
- The potential is huge. We are now seeing very good results -- long-range drones that fly far away, causing damage to enemy’s military infrastructure. The current war relies heavily on drones, which constitute the backbone, the foundation. Why? Because there are no other means available. If we could have artillery shells and gun barrels in sufficient quantities, there would be no point in utilizing drones. The potential for development lies in growth and advancement. But technology may intervene, because countermeasures are advancing too. As we are scaling up the usage of FPV drones, the enemy is scaling up the usage of electronic countermeasures. The problem with fiber optic cables is that they do not work at long distances, or they can be cut or otherwise damaged easily. But for now it is a pretty good means. Snipers are said to be no longer needed as far as there are FPV drones. Of course, where an area is overwhelmed with drones, you may not even be able to go out for a mission into a gray zone, because there is a too long distance between you and the enemy where everything is burned out by drones. But there are situations, like in an urban battle, for example, where drones do play a role, but a bullet cannot be suppressed with electronic countermeasures. You make a shot - and it will anyway fly in. Where appropriate calculations are done, it will hit its intended target, and in these situations this will work well. The same is with these drones. That is, they work well with fiber optic cables where conventional FPV drones can be wholly ineffective. That means to say that there is no panacea, and so one must not invest in one single technology, exclusively in drones. Developing, keeping up with the times are a must do.
- You are engaged in unmanned aviation analytics. What is your work in?
- Generally I review documents, intelligence reports, sometimes analyze them. In my analytical work I focus more on the enemy, on what is happening and where, I search for and identify targets that may be of interest to our forces; where I have a source of information of interest to me, I start to unravel this situation like a ball of yarn. I explore information relating to the entire line of fighting.
- What is your assessment of the current situation based on your analysis?
- The situation is extremely challenging if not catastrophic. In my opinion, the problem is not that much in that the enemy is strong, but more in that we are weak at the moment. We have a huge shortage of infantry, a big problem with the quality of infantry, I mean the timing, duration and quality of training. That is, much more time should be budgeted for for training a new soldier, but it is difficult to do now, because he was needed at the frontline yesterday, because there is a disaster there, the shortage of personnel is a tremendous challenge today. Plus, we need to factor in the lack of motivation on the part of those soldiers who have been coscripted by force and therefore are often reluctant to be trained.
Take, for example, the Pokrovsk front where the enemy is making rapid advances, or Soledar, a settlement our forces were defending and holding for a very long while, and where not just robust fortifications needed to have been set up, but it was a location that was highly suitable for a prolonged defense. Settlements like this are currently surrendered with ease one after another. Firstly, the enemy bypasses them from the flanks, does not enter a settlement proper. They move through the fields, closing the flanks. And secondly, it is often the case that our soldiers just retreat, unfortunately. It is painful, we are reluctant to hear such news, but it is a fact that is known by everyone and everywhere. But the quality of the infantry is genuinely a very big problem.
- You mentioned unmotivated solders, currently there have been increased numbers of soldiers being absent from their units or places of service without official leave (AWOL). What is your thought about this?
- This is, sad to say, just one consequence of the situation I’ve described above. You must not scold the government, scold the military leadership amid war, because this will cause even more adverse consequences. It is not that simple, like, you provide a soldier (or, rather, not a soldier proper but a future, newly conscripted solder) with the means to do his job, and he runs away, is nowhere to be found. He may not return to service, so what? The same is true with AWOLs. This same soldier ends up in the army just to go AWOL. What to do with him?
- What a unit leader can do to influence, mitigate the AWOL situation?
- The commander has a very big role to play. Let me explain this by my own example. Being myself a motivated soldier, ready to die for my ideas, I, however, when encountering a person who is wholly inept to exercise command over me (and upon whom my life depends), begin raise questions... The commander plays an extremely important role in creating an appropriate climate within his team. If he is focused on ensuring that his personnel are well trained, motivated, then he will recruit the men who have the potential to become excellent soldiers. His unit will be more appealing to potential newcomers, who know that this guy will never send them on assaults that are stupid, very poorly planned for or underexplored. He will first sit down with the people who are paid for this, trained for this, and they will plan the operation in full, will explore, spy out everything. There will be adequate fire support, appropriate surveillance support provided, and the task will most likely be accomplished. Such a commander will be particularly appealing to potential newcomers. And where there is free time, he will bring his men together, involve professionals, provide training, because a training center cannot train in everything in which only real-world war can train. Generally, no one wants to run away from a good, smart commander.
- Some commanders can be dismissed for specific violations just to be transferred to staff positions. How do you feel about this?
- There is an old, "bearded" joke. A son says to his father: "Father, when I join the army, when I become a soldier, I'm still stupid, right?" - And the father replies: "It's okay, by the time they realize that you're stupid, you'll already be promoted to lieutenant colonel." I encountered such examples long before the full-scale invasion broke out, at the beginning of my service, when a person is not just nasty, but wholly inept professionally. And what to do with him? Send him for a promotion, and let them deal with him there. It happened, it really happened, and this is a problem. In 2015, I came to serve with a line unit - and what I saw?... This man can't write, that one is stupid like a donkey, and another one gets money, some meager salary at that time, and blows it all in a casino. You served for a short while, the commanders saw that you are good at service, and they are like: “oh, you can do it”, and pile a bunch of all sorts of tasks on you. Because surrounding you are all these incompetent people, you can't trust them, have to do their work. Your salary is the same as others, but you do four times the work they do. You work gaining this experience, understand that you possess a potential, can abandon military service in favor of a civilian job that will make you decent money at the cost of much less nerves, that you can live and be happy. This is often the case.
Previously, the best of the worst used to be promoted to higher position. At least that's how it looked like to me. The company commander summons me and says: congratulations, you are going to the Sergeants' School. I ask: why me? He is like: who else? And this story was common across the military branches. The same is with commanders. Once a man begins to understand his true value, understand that he is not fully suitable for military service, he just retires from service and that's it.
- And what about the new generation of commanders, those who have come through trials fighting on the frontline?
- Mobilization has brought in lots of new people, enabled an influx of new personnel, allowing new talents to be discovered and revealed. I am talking particularly about the people who have not yet had time to be distorted as professionals by serving in the military. They are more flexible, which is a very cool trait for war, are capable of thinking and acting unconventionally, can afford deviating from strict instructions whenever appropriate, and that’s how it all works. That is, currently many people begin thinking in terms of the result to be achieved. In the unit where I serve, for example, the commander is a civilian. When interviewing me for his unit, he said, I am not going to tell you what to do and how. My only interest is the result, I want to see the result. If there is one, well done, I will scale you up, you will work. If there is none, then think about how to do something differently to get this result accomplished.
At one time, the commander used to impose the scenarios of events he saw most suitable. Sometimes it is all right for a commander to impose his views if he knows that it would definitely be better this way, is justified. It’s okay, no questions asked. But now that new commanders - more flexible and variable - have come, it is very cool really.
- To summarize the AWOL issue, what would you suggest?
- Firstly, the system is currently unaware of how to deal with AWOLs. Imprisoning everyone is not an option, that is, prisons will be overcrowded, it is going to be the easiest way out. Lots of people are thinking in terms of they would better serve a term in prison than go to war. And that's it, the system proved fully unprepared for this challenge. I personally am totally unaware of any plausible solutions. Maybe it should be censorship, but it should have been imposed a little bit earlier, because you enter some social media networks, and it’s a bit scary what I see there. Yesterday, literally, I saw this: an investigation, a short fragment, a clipping, they call some human rights activist, a kind of military lawyer, who is pledging to get a man out of a military enlistment and recruitment center (MERC) among other things. And that dude is sitting and telling: they brought him to a MERC, then suggested that he jump over the fence and run home. He was like: How that can be? And he says: if everyone did that, the war would have been over by now. You sit there, your eyes wide open – this is a person who provides such consultations for money – and you think: how would the war have ended, wouldn't you like to tell me what would happen if everyone would do what you suggest them to do: jump over the fence and run away, hiding in one house or another. Actually, they are anyone but collaborators working for the enemy and taking money for doing so under the guise of protecting human rights. There are a complete range of blogs, groups, public forums about how to hide from mobilization, escape abroad, run away somewhere, swim across the border, about routes, paths, schemes, contacts and suchlike. Well, how should things be organized in this society, and how should mobilization campaign work, if it is to be effective? People like these must be strictly barred from their job, must have their mouths silenced, must not be allowed to talk about it whatsoever, particularly now as the war is ongoing. This is just nonsense, to be honest, everything that can burn in my heart is burning when I see it all happening. The only trouble is that censorship, or, to put it bluntly, dictatorship is a bad thing, indeed. Because, when it gains momentum, it will be impossible to dismantle, it will remain working constantly. Should censorship have been imposed at the onset of the war, society would readily accept it, because it is really needed.
I myself sometimes sit and think, is it really how the system is interested to fight? There have been too many corruption scandals. Aren’t they short of political will to get it clamped down? And you just get tired of reading about corrupt schemes being exposed here or there or the others. And then a soldier is told, friend, stay in this position and fight risking your life with a pretty high probability to die. Die for what? The soldier will look and think about something like, why on earth am I going to die in this war, if a few months pass and they will make an arrangement and the war will come to a close?; I'd better live to see this happening, would better run back a little bit and sit in the next settlement or next village, or, rather, what used to be a village, because now it’s just ruins. What am I going to die for? Is it for someone else who is helping others get exempt from military service? That's why we are defeated on the frontline, losing one stretch of it after another. We have problems with mobilization, because every Ukrainian knows of the huge problems we have with everything, corruption among them, and this discourages them to go and fight.
- Does this lack of motivation to join the army annoy you as a military man?
- Purely humanly, it does annoy, indeed, but at the same time it is difficult to criticize. Rather, it is not difficult to criticize people for lacking this motivation, because I myself joined the army at the age of 21, devoted my best years to military service first, then to war. But for the sake of what? For the sake of someone else living, saying my home is my fortress? I’ve never cared for your fortress, dude! I could have had a fortress of my own, could have lived a calm and happy life. I sacrificed my health to this country. For the sake of what? For the sake of you running around explaining that this war is between politicians?... It shouldn't be like this, there should be justice. And so, regarding mobilization, when justice comes, then everything will be normal, as it is supposed to be. Are we really short of mobilization resources? No way! There is no shortage, absolutely no shortage. Just make a stop at a traffic light in Kyiv and you will see a full battalion passing by you just after one red light. Well, okay, let's cut off 50 percent of them, let it be even 70 percent – females, the elderly and aging, active service members unfit for military duty etc. – 30 percent of the battalion complement have passed by, three more red lights, and here is the full complement. These are men fully fit for service, not 50–60 year-old guys, whose health has already gone to shit... You belong to this country, to this organism, and just because of this you must not sit in your little shell. Because if you get yourself isolated, all the others will get themselves isolated, it will be like it was in 2022 -- the Russians will come to your home, knock on your door and say like, let's go in the basement for a check, a cryptanalysis with a soldering iron – I really don’t think you would have much fun of it.
- What is your opinion regarding the initiatives to lower the mobilization age, to allow females to be mobilized for war?
- The lower age of mobilization is a bad thing, on the one hand, because this affects the flower of our nation. Alternatively, a young soldier is a convenient solder, a good soldier. I recall myself at 21 when I just joined the service. Hypothetically, let it be a 20 year-old, he has still perfect health. Even if fails at times, then during service, he may not feel it, will endure it. For the purpose of war, the young is the best one. There is a common belief that war is a business for the young, why? Because you can sleep little, eat little, can carry some heavy weapons and gear, live in conditions totally unfit for human habitation, and your body endures this all, because it still has much in reserve. But when you turn 20 years over this age, excuse me, please, but your body will say: friend, I cannot endure this any longer, you haven't slept for several days, goodbye. You pick up a wounded fellow, someone weighing in the range of 220 lbs, ran one kilometer carrying him, and your body will say: goodbye, but also try to run this kilometer yet. You are hot, enthusiastic, enterprising, still retain this childish curiosity and thirst for learning, you absorb information like a sponge, you are a master of sports in everything that takes place at war. If needed, you spin a gun barrel, if needed, you fly, if needed, you take up a rifle or a machine gun and shoot, you do everything if needed, and everything is of interest to you just because you are young. But when you become a little older, this enthusiasm in you is diminishing. That’s why a reduction in the age of eligibility for war conscription is highly undesirable from the perspective of the State, but alternatively, without this done this statehood will be impossible to retain in place and maintain. This makes me be more in favor of lowering the upper age threshold, because the army should be made younger. The war cannot be won by old men. But in the army, everything currently relies on them -- they fight to the last, sit in those entrenchments, in those forest belts, saying like, let my son live, I will fight instead of him. But it would make much more effect and efficiency if 20-year-olds were sitting there instead of their dads and grandfathers.
Females in the army is another issue. Yes, there is a place for them there, indeed, but it is psychologically more difficult to send a woman to fight somewhere where she can die. To me, it would be very difficult to say, for example, little one, you can, come on, go fighting, and then ooops, some bad thing happens. Oh, I wouldn’t be able to endure this, it’s really tough. I would omit another unfavorable aspect such, for instance, as men’s being distracted by the presence of women alongside them. In a unit I served with previously, there was a customary law, a rule prohibiting females to be recruited. Women were serving at battalion-level units, but never at company-size units, because you, willingly or not, remain isolated from the outer world, civilization, you sit in that entrenchment with those men -- unshaven, unwashed, scratching -- and then you come to some command and observation point just to encounter women, and nature takes over...
Mobilization of females… I don't know, it’s a broad question. We need to be more specific here, because general mobilization, meaning everyone under the gun, fighting, this is inapplicable here, not necessary, and I don't think it will produce the desired outcome. It is already happening in a specific way, there are women employed with various medical units, there are a lot of positions in which women would be effective and useful, but they can come there if they wish so, and they perform tasks there, there are actually enough of them.
- You once served as second in command, didn’t you?
- I served as deputy commander at an aerial reconnaissance platoon, but actually, it wasn’t quite like commonly perceived. Here you have personnel under your command, we work with them together. But that wasn’t like that. Our battalion went on rotation every three months, and we changed ourselves, because there were two combat groups that were constantly deployed to the frontline. This being the case, half the personnel were permanently assigned to one group, the other half to another group, and we could meet each other twice a year, when we changed each other on rotations... We grouped ourselves, made a small detachment of 12 men, small subgroups, more like detachments – it was essentially this self-organization which decided that we would have MANPADS and ATGMs, marksmen, drones, machine guns and similar things... We would not stay in one place for a long while, but actually were wandering continuously in search of locations more suitable for work in this mode, and we could perform whatever task was asked of us.
- And what guided your decisions?
- The first thing I care for and value most is my soldiers’ lives, because when at war, nothing values more than that. No fire capabilities or equipment (even high valued) can replace a good soldier. Because a human is a universal tool that is capable of whatever tasks are needed, but everything depends on motivation and training, plus, of course, physical fitness. And therefore, personnel is the first thing to be prioritized, because it is the highest value according to the Constitution of Life. What motivated me? Effectiveness and efficiency, commitment to destroy as much enemy as possible while at the same time keeping your own losses low, this is how the war works.
- What makes it possible, given that fighting at war carries a huge risk of death?
- This is largely due to appropriate planning and, of course, good luck. To be honest, much no longer depends on you alone, but generally, much of the success is driven by good luck only. There was a multiplicity of situations in which we had few chances to survive, but we were lucky to stay alive. The cohesion of the unit, understanding among team members, among each other are what played a role in this. That’s to say, this integrity of the organism, where your soldiers understand what to expect from you, and what you expect of them, you just rely on them, knowing that at the right moment they will not hide somewhere, will not tremble with fear, but will stay in place holding their assigned positions. This is critical, and it works and produces results. In the army, everything is simple actually, everything is simple in war, there are no colors, just black and white. You just gathered cool guys who want to, can, and you work with them.
- Are you the kind of commander your soldiers can safely rely upon?
- Yes, I proved it to them that they can, I would be ready to sacrifice my life to each of them. Speaking without undue pathos, I would admit I suffered an injury while saving a soldier of mine. I could have told him: friend, try and crawl, you have two bullet wounds, nothing to worry about, crawl these 120 meters across the field, and goodbye, but I hadn’t. Two of us were saving him under never-ending machine-gun fire. I would never leave any of our dead men somewhere in the gray zone. I believe that the living should be sent to pick up the dead, because I myself would like to be treated that way. I am ready to die on the battlefield, just need to be certain that my family and friends can bury me with dignity, because it will be important to them. And it no longer matters to me whether I am left dead on the battlefield or get burned in a crematorium.
- What helps you not lose motivation and continue in the defense of the country?
- Honestly, I have already asked this question to myself too, about what drives me. Indeed, you can mention patriotism, love for your nation, for your country and similar things, but, probably, everything is more prosaic. What drives me? This is perhaps the lack of alternatives. Realistically, what other scenario can happen? I cannot imagine a scenario where we lose... I love Ukraine, I would like to live here. Indeed, it has problems to be dealt with, but there are no other options. I do not know another scenario, an alternative, how this could end, except with a just victory or a just peace. This is what I am fighting for, at least can contribute something, I am doing it, that is, I will not be ashamed of myself later that I did not do what I could have done, I am doing it, and I, in principle, like it, am proud of myself, well done. My inner self calmed down when I went to war, and now I'm definitely a good guy because I'm involved. And when it's all over (I'm certain everything will be fine), then I'll breathe a sigh of relief and start thinking about my future. But I'll think about it in this country, an independent, free Ukraine, alongside other Ukrainians who will rejoice in this victory.
- What do you think our victory will look like?
- This is a very philosophical question. For some reason it seems to me that there are no grounds to talk about the return to borders as of 1991. That is, we will not regain our territory by force, Russia is not going to give it up so easily. Well, let's bury the hatchet. You want our territory? Ok, take it. Or even the borders as of 2022, I don't believe in this either. Why are the Russians throwing these huge resources at it? They will continue seizing more of our territory, will fight for that, this is their first goal to be achieved. Victory is probably in real guarantees, security assurances, membership in the Alliance, the provision of sufficient resources and weaponry so as we can confidently fight back in the event of a future war. I don’t know what will follow, maybe concessions, concessions on our part. It is very difficult to predict anything, especially being a modest lieutenant serving at the National Guard of Ukraine. Russia will certainly want something in exchange. Hopefully, this will not be a guarantee of our non-admission to certain blocks or alliances, an official status for the Russian language in Ukraine or downsizing our army to 100,000 men like they demanded back in 2022, because the latter will be 100 percent guarantee Ukraine will cease to exist. This all is hard to foresee, you see how quickly the situation is changing, how events are developing. It is absolutely impossible to predict anything, this is the job to be done by those uncles who earn a salary from this. They sit there, telling different stories about whether it will come true or not. Let it be independence, membership in NATO, and weapons supplies – I think this scenario to be realistic.
- As our interview is wrapping up, would you answer a series of blitz questions? What does being a Hero of Ukraine mean to you?
- Accountability.
- What is war to you?
- Lifestyle.
- Who is your hero?
- Wife among others.
- What can you never forgive?
- Betrayal and leaving in danger.
- What day of your life do you consider the happiest?
- The day I was found alive.
- What is critical to have in place in a hopeless situation?
- Cold mind.
- What is the first thing you will do after our victory?
- Verify the information to see if it is true.
- Thank you for this visit and for this conversation!
Interviewed by Diana Slavinska
The interview can be watched in full here